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关于Kültür一词。

看到《Yemek Kültür 饮食文化》版块,对文化一词在Salar语中的表达引起了兴趣,文化在Uyghur等其他突厥语中是用Medeniyet一词来表达,本人觉得Kültür一词为俄语单词,不是突厥语。土库曼语也不是纯正的突厥语,其中有很多俄语词汇。望版主查证。

yasha uyghurum!
Kültür来自于英文的culture。意思是文化。

还有一词 civilization 意思是文明。

我们可以吸收这个词,把文化说Kültür,把文明说Medeniyet.

I am Uyghur.
WWW.UYGHURUM.NET/CNBBS
本帖最后由 凯末尔主义 于 2009-5-30 12:29 编辑

http://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C9%99d%C9%99niyy%C9%99t
Mədəniyyət
Vikipediya, açıq ensiklopediya - ویکیپدیا ، آچیق انسایکلوپدیا


http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%AB%D9%82%D8%A7%D9%81%D8%A9
ثقافة


http://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%81%D8%B1%D9%87%D9%86%DA%AF
فرهنگ

http://tt.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A4d%C3%A4ni%C3%A4t
Mädäniät

http://tg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0 ... D%D0%B8%D1%8F%D1%82
Маданият

http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BClt%C3%BCr
Kültür

Kültür farklı anlamları olan bir terimdir.

İnsana ilişkin bir kavram olarak kültür, tarih içerisinde yaratılan bir anlam ve önem sistemidir. Bir grup insanın bireysel ve toplu yaşamlarını anlamada, düzenlemede ve yapılandırmada kullandıkları bir inançlar ve adetler sistemidir.[1]

Türk Dil Kurumu sözlüğüne göre ise, kültür (ekin, eski dilde hars) kavramının tanımı şu şekildedir:
“         "Tarihsel, toplumsal gelişme süreci içinde yaratılan bütün maddi ve manevi değerler ile bunları yaratmada, sonraki nesillere iletmede kullanılan, insanın doğal ve toplumsal çevresine egemenliğinin ölçüsünü gösteren araçların bütünü."[2]         „


Etimolojisi [değiştir]

Kültür sözcüğü Latince culturadan gelir. Cultura, inşa etmek, işlemek, süslemek, bakmak anlamlarına gelen colere'den türetilmiştir. Örneğin Romalılar 'mera işlenmesine' agri cultura demişlerdir.

Türkçe'nin batı dilleri etkisine girmesinden önce (Cumhuriyet döneminde de) kullanılan hars sözcüğü ise Arapçadır ve "tarla sürmek" anlamına gelir.[3]

Her iki kelimenin de tarımla ilgili olmasından kaynaklanıyor olsa gerek, 20.yy'da Türk Dil Kurumu tarafından uygun görülen ekin sözcüğü, bu yabancı kökenli kelimelere alternatif olarak önerilmiştir.


http://uz.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madaniyat
Madaniyat
Vikipediya, ochiq ensiklopediya
http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medeniyet
Uygarlık veya medeniyet, bir ülke veya toplumun, maddi ve manevi varlıklarının, düşünce, sanat, bilim, teknoloji ürünlerinin tamamını ifade eder. Uygar kelimesi, yerleşik hayata ilk geçen Türk kavimi olan Uygurlardan gelmektedir.

http://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sivilizasiya
Sivilizasiya
Vikipediya, açıq ensiklopediya - ویکیپدیا ، آچیق انسایکلوپدیا

http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%AD%D8%B6%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A9
حضارة
من ويكيبيديا، الموسوعة الحرة


http://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%AA%D9%85%D8%AF%D9%86
تمدن
از ویکی‌پدیا، دانشنامهٔ آزاد
“文化”可以考虑用纯突厥语的 ekin
或者 奥斯曼语的 hars
5# 凯末尔主义

同意您的说法,支持您。
yasha uyghurum!

“文化”可以考虑用纯突厥语的 ekin 或者 奥斯曼语的 hars 凯末尔主义 发表于 2009-5-30 12:41

看来,我们还要加强对古代突厥语的研究。既然古代突厥语中存在这个词汇,我们就不该这么露骨地借用英语,我们还是用 ekin 。

本帖最后由 凯末尔主义 于 2009-6-15 11:00 编辑

ekin 在今天土耳其语里是 “丰收”,“农业”,“耕耘” 的意思。
http://www.info-turk.be/105-106E.pdf
但是,当然有用作“文化”的:"There Is a hopoful item of news from Dr Yaicui
Kuçok, He, Aziz Ncatn (formerly President of the
Turkish Writers' Union and now on honorary member
of English PEN and West Gorman PUN) and a number
of other Turkish intellectuals havo founded a new
private company called "Ekln Inc." (Ekin means
"culture"), which intends to organise conferences and
seminars, stage plays and exhibitions, sponsor scholarly
lectures, etc, and generally try to fill the cultural va-
cuum that has come into existence in Turkey. We
wish them every success.

而奥斯曼语的 hars 则在旧作品,和早期共和国法律中找到(共和国法律大量采用奥斯曼语词汇)
http://www.google.com/search?q=% ... =&safe=off&filter=0
This law began with a definition of how one could qualify as an immigrant, stating in its second article: "Those people who do not share the Turkish hars ...


http://www.google.com/search?hl= ... +dichotomy%3A+hars+(culture)+and+medeniyet+(civilization+-+technology)&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
"and his dichotomy: hars (culture) and medeniyet (civilization - technology)

齐亚青勇 (Ziya Gokalp)明确地区别了 文明 medeniyet  和 文化 hars 。 “文化” hars 是定义了一个民族国家的,比如说“突厥民族文化”。而“文明”则是多民族的。 突厥民族文化在中世纪初 寄生于 华夏文明,后来寄生于 波斯阿拉伯文明, 现在必须 寄生于 最先进的 西欧文明。齐亚青勇是通过这个理论来区别“文化”与“文明”的。 青勇的 hars 一词,在共和国语里被翻译成 kultur

http://www.google.com/search?hl= ... ioned+Turkish+hars+(culture)%2C+the+word+hars+referred+to+Islam+and+the+Turkish+language%2C+among+other+things.+However%2C+while+Islam+was+a+significant&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
which mentioned Turkish hars (culture), the word hars referred to Islam and the Turkish language, among other things. However, while Islam was a significant

http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2000/issue4/jv4n4a4.html
FETHULLAH GULEN AND HIS LIBERAL "TURKISH ISLAM" MOVEMENT
Further, as already noted, Gulen's movement seeks integration with the modern world by reconciling modern and traditional values. This attempt to create a synthesis of ideas resembles the efforts of the last nationalist thinkers of the Ottoman Empire. For example, Ziya Gokalp emphasized the necessity of creating a synthesis based on combining elements taken from Turkish culture (hars) and from Western science and technology. Gulen and his devotees go a step further accepting Western civilization as a suitable foundation for material life while considering Islamic civilization suitable for spiritual life. It should be noted, though, that given the movement's conservative character it does appeal to those who find that the Turkish political system is over-emphasizing secularism and modernization.

http://www.google.com/search?hl= ... concept+of+culture+(hars)+of+the+group+of+Turks%2C+as+formulated+by+the+famous+Ziya+Gokalp%2C+was+not+acceptable%2C+since+it+defied+the&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
His claim was that, the concept of culture (hars) of the group of Turks, as formulated by the famous Ziya Gokalp, was not acceptable, since it defied the

This is the html version of the file http://tulp.leidenuniv.nl/conten ... ottomans_final.pdf.
This was not the only paradox in the ideological atmosphere of that era. Another
one concerned the relation between ‘Ottoman’ and ‘Turkish’ identification. Turkish
identity was constructed in contrast to the Ottoman one. Ziya Gökalp, prolific writer and
ideologue, delegate at the Ottoman Parliament, was one of the founding figures of
Turkish nationalism. Largely influenced by French sociology and especially the
Durkheimian theory about an organic society where religion plays an important role, he
defined the Turkish element as the simple and original culture of the nation which created
its own identity through its inherent morality. On the other hand, the Ottoman element
was described as a mixed and pretentious culture of the upper class, which distorted the
character of the nation. Moreover, Ottoman culture was considered not only alien to the
Turkish culture but also strongly influenced by the ancient Greek, the Arabic and the
Byzantine cultures. The social and intellectual elite (seçkinler) should turn to the ‘people’
in order both to become familiar with the national ‘culture’ (hars) and communicate
universal ‘civilisation’ (medeniyet) to the people.

http://www.google.com/search?q=f ... ncile+%22medeniyet+(civilization)+and+hars&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&filter=0
formulated it as the need to reconcile "medeniyet (civilization) and hars

This is the html version of the file http://www.transint.boun.edu.tr/ ... zTahirGurcaglar.pdf
The partialist school of thought emphasised the need for adopting western
science and technology while rejecting its cultural and moral basis (Tunaya 1999:
79). Renowned ideologue and founder of the Turkist movement, Ziya Gökalp,
contributed to the partialist debate with an important distinction he made between
“medeniyet” (civilization) and “hars” (culture). In his Türkçülüğün Esasları
(Principles of Turkism), originally published in 1923, he wrote: “So it is evident that
what separates culture from civilization is the fact that culture is made up primarily
of feelings and civilization is made up primarily of knowledge” [“Görülüyor ki hars
ile medeniyeti biri birinden ayıran, harsın bilhassa duygulardan, medeniyetin
bilhassa bilgilerden mürekkep olmasıdır.”] (Gökalp 1986: 34). His idea of
westernization was limited to the civilizational aspect while his vision was to
Page 110
95
preserve the elements of a Turkish culture within a westernised civilisation. In a
way, this became the mission of what he called “Turkism”.

In his words:
So the duty of Turkism is to search and find the Turkish culture that has only
survived among the people and on the other hand to take Western civilization
intact and as a whole and to implant it into national culture (Gökalp 1986: 40).
[İşte Türkçülüğün vazifesi, bir taraftan yalnız halk arasında kalmış olan Türk
harsını arayıp bulmak, diğer cihetten garp medeniyetini tam ve canlı bir surette
alarak milli harsa aşılamaktır (Gökalp 1986: 40).]
Wholists, on the other hand, maintained that the western civilization was a
whole and could only be adopted in its entirety (Tunaya 1999: 57). The republican
institution in its early stages can be said to have adopted this latter approach which
could be sensed in the body of social, cultural, legal, economic and political reforms
it initiated. It was not willing to adopt only selected items of the western repertoire
as had been the case in the 19th century (Arıkan 1999: 83). Yet, what was meant by
the term “West” which was obviously more than a geographical designation?
Starting from the 19
th
century, Ottoman and later republican subjects did not
consider the West as only Europe. By then, United States and even Japan were also
regarded as western countries. However, the concept of the West included much
more than a physical map.

This is the html version of the file http://www.volkskunde.uni-muench ... d/colaturka_ozk.pdf
In the Turkish case, this duality was most apparent in the work of Ziya Gökalp,
a prominent ideologue of Turkish nation making, who formulated it as the need to
reconcile medeniyet (civilization) and hars (culture). Gokalp based his
sociological conception of nation on Durkheimian grounds, asserting that
modernization was a must, but that Turkish cultural tenets (which were
considered essential and inherent) were also to be kept alive and well (Bora
2002). For a similar formulation in the case of India; see Richard Fox’s (1990)
analysis of how Hindu nationalism came into being as a form of cultural resistance
to colonization.



http://www.google.com/search?q=H ... n&lr=&safe=off&sa=2
Hars  Medeniyet

http://www.google.com/search?hl= ... lture&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
Hars  Medeniyet culture


请详细阅读 以上 连接 用 hars 一词的理论文章。
http://tr.wikipedia.org/w/index. ... rch=hars&go=Git
hars Aşağıda 1 - 10 arası 10 sonuç gösteriliyor
等这类 “原突厥语”,奥斯曼语,察合台语 来源的 “文化词汇” 积聚到一定数量,它们就可以编入 Tesarus 類語辭典, 一群一群地组成“同义词近义词组”。

那时候,撒拉尔诗人,作家用民族语写作时,就可以 自如地 把一个词换成另一个近义词,细细品味 两种不同选择的 微妙区别,然后再 细细品味 两个 近义词 在概念上,哲学上的 微妙区别。

所以,搜集 维吾尔,乌兹别克,哈萨克,塔塔尔,土耳其,土库曼,阿塞,奥斯曼,察合台 丰富的近义词 (突厥为上等,波斯阿拉伯为中上,西方为次,中俄为劣及不合格)有助于 建立这个 从 自然口语 晋升为 文学语言所必须的 Tesarus 類語辭典 。  有的 原突厥语,阿拉伯词汇, 虽然对现代撒拉尔来说 十分生疏,将来作为 “同义词组”中的成员,则没有很大的问题。

最大的任务,是用 合格的 词语,取代 来源于 汉语,俄语的 词语。 即使 汉语俄语词汇 现在是最熟悉的,你们会 意识到它们将来对 撒拉尔文学规范语言的 危害。 因为 中俄词汇 是 将撒拉尔-土库曼语言 和其他突厥语言割裂 的最大潜在因素,而且也是 语言走向 “协和语化” ( pidgin, creole )的第一个征兆。

看来,我们还要加强对古代突厥语的研究。既然古代突厥语中存在这个词汇,我们就不该这么露骨地借用英语,我们还是用 ekin 。 ULUBEG 发表于 2009-6-15 09:01

 

 

 

Kültür 应该 用。  ekin,  hars, madaniyat  也更应该用。  重要是找出词源,找出文化源 才是根源。

 

等这类 “原突厥语”,奥斯曼语,察合台语 来源的 “文化词汇” 积聚到一定数量,它们就可以编入 Tesarus 類語辭典, 一群一群地组成“同义词近义词组”。

但是楼上 凯版主说的对, 我们就是应该在二三十年内,三五十年内达到这种程度。

 

 

波斯阿拉伯为中上,西方为次,中俄为劣及不合格

这个就不能赞同,波斯阿拉伯算不上中上,西文,中文也算不上低下。 重要的不是什么文,什么文化,我个人认为 波斯阿拉伯,西方文化,中华文化没有高下,主要是词源,文化源的追寻,然后发达自己的创造力。

 




希望你们管理员, 版主们好好引导大家, 不能潜意识或无意灌输排斥任何文化的倾向。
我们是要启蒙,自己复兴振兴。 不是要排斥中华文明,汉文化,或西方文化。



好的。我觉得我不能造成排外主义的苗头。
只是觉得越保守越好,避免 那种 撒拉尔孩子 用 半汉半撒“协和语”来念“蚂蚁上树”的趋势,或土库曼哈萨克等语大量俄罗斯化的趋势。
重新改一下措辞:如果 遇到 不同词源的 借词,力求 借词的 结果,是提高书面语 文学质量的。 目前从保守的角度来看,波斯阿拉伯借词 主要反映了 哈里发时代 突厥伊斯兰文学的高度发展,西欧词汇主要反映了 十九,二十世纪 现代科学的 系统引进。  所以从这个角度来看,借入词汇是有一定 提高文学分量目的的。 而二十世纪大量 汉语词汇输入,目前来看 很多属于 口语“协和语化”范畴。 而独联体突厥语言大量 俄罗斯语词汇输入,则与 这些国家 独特的 苏维埃历史和 历史上的一个意识形态制度有关。 如果某些汉,俄词汇,确实能够 提高书面语文学质量,是可以保留的。
如果某些汉,俄词汇,确实能够 提高书面语文学质量,是可以保留的。

本人认为科技方面可以保留英文,俄文,德文等科技词汇,这样可以更容易与国际科技词汇接轨。但文学方面应该尽可能地纯化本民族的语言,剔除外来语,如本民族的古语中没有可以借用相近的其他突厥胞族中已有的词汇或借鉴创造词汇,从而丰富本民族的语言。
yasha uyghurum!
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